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OWLSVIEW

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A Determination To Act

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:05 PM EDT
politics, opinionprotestsconservativeshistory
By owlsview

What really distinguishes this generation. . . is its determination to act, its joy in action,  the assurance of being able to change things by one’s own efforts. Hannah Arendt (1972

     It will take about three minutes for you to read the above link. It will refresh the memories of some and educate others on the basic history of 60's protests. You will be quite amazed at the many similarities between then and now, especially the actions of the left.

     Objection To Lawlessness

     Many from the conservative side have been saying that if these people want credibility they need to behave themselves and obey all of the laws. Peaceful demonstrations ?

The black and hippy protests going on during this period overlapped (time-wise), but most hippies were still intent on peaceful protest. On October 21 and 22, 1967, 35,000 anti-war protesters stormed the Pentagon. They were greeted with tear gas. Eventually all the demonstrators sat down in front of the Pentagon and the assembled troops (MPs). The standoff continued while the protesters held teach-ins, sang songs, chanted and listened to speeches. Many demonstrators went up to the MPs and talked to them about peace and love. A famous photo shows a young man placing a flower in the rifle muzzle of a guardsman. As day became night, some of the troops were won over. The protest was so peaceful at this point, no one felt threatened. People started fires to keep warm, and a community was forming. 

Around midnight, paratroopers relieved the MPs and they started to clear out the demonstrators with force. 647 protesters were arrested, often after being severely beaten by the paratroopers and U.S. Marshals. In response, later that same week, draft deferments were eliminated for those who violated draft laws or interfered with recruitment, two common tactics of the protesters.

 

     No, the law really shouldn't be broken, but how else do you get heard? Nobody pays attention to the nice guys. Many of the laws that are getting broken such as smoking dope on the street, having sex in sleeping bags, being disorderly, threatening people,obstructing traffic and a myriad of other things pale by comparison to the problems caused by the "legal" activities  of big business. You know darn good and well that you are only being shown what you are meant to see.

 

Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; 
it must be demanded by the oppressed.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

     Most Oppressed Generation In Modern American History

     That's who these people are. The real victims. Not you, not me today's youth, and we have helped to make them victims. 

 

     Another Repetition Of History

     Is that what you really want. Leave it to the left to control and that is what we will get. Back in the 60's people laughed at the idea of a program such as  "Affirmative Action". Are you laughing at the concept of "Affirmative Action For Illegal Immigrants"?After all of the complaining you have done, do you really want more and bigger entitlement programs? Leave this movement in the hands of the far left and that is what you will get.

     These people are going to vote for something and someone. Are you going to act all snooty and refuse to share your ideas and values with them just because they aren't behaving like good little boys and girls. Why should they vote for the things that you want?That I want? You won't even make the effort to wade through the B.S. and listen to them.

 

     What Are You Really Afraid Of

     Don't tell me corrupt government, socialism or Godlessness. WALL STREET! You know that changes are needed in the world of big business, but you are scared to death of any of those changes being made now. Your fear is justified, your nearing retirement and future survival lies in your investments. If you think they are safe now, perhaps you should take another look. Then use your imagination and look four years into the future that turns us even further to the left. More taxes, more entitlement programs which you won't qualify for because you made to much money when you were younger or your family home is in too nice of a neighborhood.

     Then look a little further into the future, another thirty years, picture your kids sitting there wondering how in the blazes did they manage to screw things up so much. Especially when you know the blame is yours for not being there for them now.

 

     Not An Attack On Conservatives

     That's right, I am not attacking conservatives, Republicans, moderates, centrists or even liberals. I am giving you a few kicks in the butt. Roll up your sleeves and really do something for whatever your cause is. Hopefully it's restoring the American Dream, not just surviving until death.

     In the end, only you can decide if you are a "me-me-me" American or an "US-US-US"American. Duck and run or pump your fist.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, 
but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Martin Luther King, Jr.


http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/special-report/2011/10/13/political-influence-occupy-wall-street

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  • Public Discussion (131)
owlsview

COH

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:05 PM EDT
Oliver Closoff

How's the saying go. If you can remember the 60's you weren't there.

In addition to many good things that were spawned during the 60's, that period also left in its wake a significant number of social ills. (e.g. Disco in the 70's to name one)

Flash forward.

Obama is killing the American dream. If he's re-elected. There is no hope for the future.

  • 10 votes
#1.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 PM EDT
owlsview

Contrary to the song I was there and do remember. Sometimes I wish I could forget a few things but all in all I am glad that I remember. My memories and the memories of others is the experience that these people don't have. Experience that wasn't available to us. Experience that we shouldn't waste unless we want all of our efforts of the 60's to be totally in vain.

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:29 PM EDT
Fla Pat

My memories and the memories of others is the experience that these people don't have.

Yet here they are demonstrating. Maybe it's in the DNA, the genetic code. We recognize corruption and manipulation.

To say this is a younger generation movement would be a mistake. Americans across all age groups are pissed. What is the percentage thinking the country is heading in the wrong direction - is it over 70%? Also to say that it is Obama that's killing the American Dream is ridicules. Congress holds the power to pass or reject anything he puts forth.

Everyone can moan and groan all they want but this will only escalate. The civil rights struggle spanned decades, the 60's anti war protest spilled over to the early 70's - change is hard and often measured in decades. I look forward to the coming years.

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:21 PM EDT
owlsview

I totally agree that this is a trans-generational movement. The problem seems to be in getting the older generation especially the conservatives to acknowledge the fact.

The more we sit around and drag our feet and refuse to work with others regardless of age the more obvious it becomes that we are the ones destroying the American Dream.

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:32 PM EDT
Oliver Closoff

There you go again. You spent and spent because you thought it didn't matter and you put our country into a hole it may never dig out of and when times get tough you look for the nanny state solve your problems AGAIN. But here we see true character revealed and it isn't pretty. You want stuff because well you just want stuff. You think you're entitled to it. The envy spills out into the open and its as if the inner two year old has been unleashed all over again.

You go on electing dumbass politicians over and over again because you buy into to their line of BS. Somewhere along the way you figured we could just vote yourselves more stuff so why not. And you're sitting there going, what's wrong with everyone else? Don't they realize if we can fool enough people we can vote ourselves more stuff. It's like "money for nothing and your chicks for free" http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/dire+straits/money+for+nothing_20040681.html

So now you're angry because the world in hungry, you've gone soft and somebody moved your cheese. And what do you do. Protest? Really? You're looking for what exactly. You're going to go back to well and look for the government to do your bidding. As if that's really worked out for you.

Different this time you say? How so? Maybe just maybe some of this halfwits will put their heads together and come up with an idea to do something creative. That would be a trick. I'm all for it.

I know who I would take to task if given the opportunity. But the thought of aligning myself with this bunch of knuckleheads simply doesn't play.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:50 PM EDT
owlsview

You are accusing these kids of things their parents have done, not they themselves. Up to this point they have not been running their own lives. Their are knuckleheads who just don't know and their are knuckleheads that don't use what they know.

  • 4 votes
#1.6 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:08 AM EDT
owlsview

And thar are people who can never spell their at the right time they want to spell there. Irritating little quirk.

  • 6 votes
#1.7 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:24 AM EDT
DocPhil

OC

That which was gained from the movement of the sixties and the seventies has been destroyed during the past forty years by the supply siders and neo-cons. It isn't a matter of those who protested against government sponsored murder in Vietnam, a military industrial complex that controlled the economics of the country, and a social structure that was still mired in the 19th century, that caused the current out of control government. It was an agenda of feed the greed of the corporate and individual rich, while destroying the fabric of the working and middle classes that allowed this nation to slip to 97th in the world in income disparity. Many of us on the left thought that we had won a decisive battle during the Vietnam era. Unfortunately we were wrong. We won skirmishes and allowed the battles of the last thirty years go the way of Wall Street and the corporatist and religious right. Well, we've awakened from our slumber and are on the march again. This time we will win the war, not merely the battle. We realize that the future of our nation is at stake.

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:45 AM EDT
owlsview

Doc I think and hope that you will find that even though it is being projected as a left-wing liberal movement that it is really going to develop into a centrist movement. Nobody wins by putting either the left or right in charge. The left/right battles are growing stale, boring and non-productive. The left will not be able to fool these people as long as they did us in the 60's.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:22 PM EDT
Reply
hugh b

All of most of the last 40 years has been a contrivance, a strategy, a manipulation of society. The counter-culture movement of the 60s shook the establishment to its core.

I have written a number of times that one of the most important differences between people on the left and on the right is how they think of themselves and what they want from others.

Conservatives, generally speaking, I believe have a need and desire to belong to something. A religion, a political party, social groups, etc. to make their place in the world more comfortable. And if you are not part of any one of their subgroups than your motives are suspect. And they want you to change.

Liberals, on the other hand seem to have more of laissez-faire attitude towards others. An attitude that you live your life I will live mine, I don't judge you, you don't judge me and I am willing to accept you as you are.

The conservative movement maintains continuity and its core between administrations. They are better able to sustain their strategy over years and decades. And we have seen those results in the manifestation of all the things the 60s movement represented.

War is as prevalent now as it has ever been. And the wars we have been engaged in were unjustly prosecuted and were based on lies. Just as the Vietnam War was. The military industrial complex has just gotten richer. And their lessons learned stopped the draft from happening this time and the propaganda machine has used the honor of our fallen to legitimize their fraud.

Religion, morals, ethics, etc are dictated by accepted beliefs, none of this fringe hippie stuff for us. The land of religious tolerance is more of an Christian country than it has ever been.

The spokes people for investment groups, mutual funds, automobiles, and any other material goods are some times icons of the 60s that once believed that materialism was evil and selfish.

You can do any drug you want, as long as it is government sanctioned, supports the pharmaceutical companies, and you pay your insurance. It does not matter that some of it, far too much of it is poison, it has to be government sanctioned.

And now here we are again.

  • 3 votes
#2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:04 PM EDT
kim me

I remember many of those years, and yes, you are right, our youth need our support because they have been wronged.

  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:24 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

Liberals, on the other hand seem to have more of laissez-faire attitude towards others. An attitude that you live your life I will live mine, I don't judge you, you don't judge me and I am willing to accept you as you are.

Seems like that would be true because of the word "liberal", but liberals can be very judgemental.

Example: if a conservative doesn't like guns, they just don't buy one, but a liberal doesn't want anyone to have one.

Example: The "Class Warfare" Liberal protesters call out wealthy bankers and call them greedy, but they don't have a problem with the super wealthy movie stars, pro athletes or rap moguls.

Example: Bush was called a war criminal, but the liberal media ignores the same behavior by Obama.

Example: The liberal left will defend Islam even though the religion condones beheadings, honor killings, subjugation of women and murdering of gays. Yet they constantly condemn Christianity which teaches love, acceptance and forgiveness.

  • 12 votes
#2.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:24 PM EDT
owlsview

Very valid points Elaine but I believe that hugh b realized he was in the wrong place and left.

While you are hear though, it would be nice to hear more of your take on the OWS.

  • 7 votes
#2.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:39 PM EDT
NativeCon

Elaine, thank you for bringing this "camp happy' back to reality. You are right, there are substantial and critical differences in how the left reacts to criticism vs the right, and how the left treats open and factual debate. It inevitably devolves into name calling and a 'hang up'. Your examples are right on, and to take it into current affairs, the left simply will NOT discuss the blatant and open corruption within this administration which is at the very least 50% of the problem, (being generous), vs volumes of criticism upon GWB by loyal conservatives, during his Presidency. All I hope to see is that with the attempt to unite a 60's feeling with this "Occupation" crowd, I want to see someone, anyone on the progressive end give an inch and accept the possibility, that many of them are misguided. I sincerely doubt that the romance and passion the seeder is projecting here, is even considered by the great thinkers in these events. Sorry, but, as an old 60's demonstrator myself, I fail to see much openness to alternative thought much less, a united spirit of purpose as WE enjoyed, oh so long ago. Yes, America has warts, always had, probably always has, but bitching for the sake of bitching is NOT true participatory democracy.

  • 10 votes
#2.4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:44 PM EDT
Fla Pat

Example: The "Class Warfare" Liberal protesters call out wealthy bankers and call them greedy, but they don't have a problem with the super wealthy movie stars, pro athletes or rap moguls.

This liberal certainly calls that out. Tell me what it says about what we value when a movie star or a pro athlete is compensated at the levels they are compared to the teachers who educate our children and health care workers who heal and comfort us when our health is stricken. What about all the researchers that bring innovation to our lives.

We as a society (not individually by any means) worship money - there can be no other explanation. And you know what - that is sad.

As to the rest of your comments:

Bush was called a war criminal, but the liberal media ignores the same behavior by Obama.

The legality and constitutionally was widely cover in the liberal media. You might expand your sources.

The liberal left will defend Islam even though the religion condones beheadings, honor killings, subjugation of women and murdering of gays. Yet they constantly condemn Christianity which teaches love, acceptance and forgiveness.

Ah, no. Islam does not condone those things. The bastardization of Islam might just as the bastardization of the bible give us Westboro Baptist Church and all the love, acceptance and forgiveness they practice.

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:05 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

Thank you Owlsview and NativeCon.

Sorry, but, as an old 60's demonstrator myself

As was I and after 50,000 dead American's soldiers for a purely political war in Viet Nam I was proud to stand up and say ENOUGH.

I was raised Democrat in a family of Democrats in a majority Democrat State, but I don't recognize the Democratic party of today; nor does my family who changed party affiliations as I did.....and aparently so did the whole State where I live as it's counted in the Red category now. Funny, nobody discussed it....it just happened. That's because none of us would be caught dead voting for a liberal candidate today.

Those idiot Wall Street Occupiers don't have a clue! What are they fighting for? They don't know! When do they want it? Now! What are they fighting for? They aren't sure! When do they want it? Now!

Oh please! A bunch of spoiled brats camping out in their parents expensive LL Bean sleeping bags, keeping in touch with their expensive iphones, carrying their designer back packs mommy and daddy bought them and wearing $500 dollar jeans and BITCHING about what exactly?

If it really were about the bank bailouts....that happened three years ago!! Where were they? They got their mass email from SEIU to join the class warfare demonstrations and support Obama. Does Obama think these boneheads are going to get him re-elected? He's a big an idiot as they are!

  • 9 votes
#2.6 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:09 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

Ah, no. Islam does not condone those things.

Ah, yes they do. 5000 honor killings every year in Islam and you can look it up.

The bastardization of Islam might just as the bastardization of the bible give us Westboro Baptist Church and all the love, acceptance and forgiveness they practice.

Westboro? Really? A kooky family of about 30 members? And you compare that to all of radical Islam?

The liberal left will defend Islam even though the religion condones beheadings, honor killings, subjugation of women and murdering of gays. Yet they constantly condemn Christianity which teaches love, acceptance and forgiveness.

You are exactly what I'm talking about!

  • 7 votes
#2.7 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:14 PM EDT
owlsview

I can't help but feel that it is incumbent that we find a way to get them to open up to thoughts not dominated by the left. The left is quite happy to see the conservatives remain on the sidelines makes the choice of who the kids are going to listen to fairly easy. Most of these youngsters political leanings are still being developed, their opinions are yet to be caste in stone.

Is it to much to ask that distaste for the way they are behaving now be set aside and an effort be made to influence the way they behave in the future?

  • 4 votes
#2.8 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:15 PM EDT
Fla Pat

Elaine-1503791

Honor killings are not part of Islam. It is not mentioned in any of their holy books. That it occurs is through the application of man, and it happen in all societies and not just Islamic ones. It may make you feel good to label me as an apologist. I just like a truthful basis for discussion.

What is the relationship between ‘honour killing’ and Islam?
The notion that Islam condones ‘honour killing’ is a misconception. Murder in the name of honour is not prescribed by any interpretation of Sharia. In fact, many laws that excuse ‘honour killings’ (see below) do not trace back to Islamic law, but are rather derived from the Napoleonic code. Article 324 of the Napoleonic Penal Code states that murder committed by a husband on his wife is excusable in the case of adultery. This law, as implemented in many nations, has been misappropriated and entangled with various cultural notions of “honour”. As a result, such interpretations of an ‘honourable motive’ have been broadened by cultural context, and has served to perpetuate ‘honour killing’ and honour-based violence in these societies.

Furthermore, reputable Islamic scholars and clerics have spoken out against the practice of ‘honour killings.’

http://stop-stoning.org/faq_honour

owlsview - sorry to get side tracked.

  • 1 vote
#2.9 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:43 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

Sorry Owl.

“Honor Killing” is Absolutely Islamic!

by Syed Kamran Mirza

Honor killings, which occur with shocking regularity in certain parts of the Middle East and South Asia, target women whose actions – actual or suspected – violate the honor of their family, an honor which is thought to depend on the sexual purity of its female members. Victims are always being killed/slaughtered mercilessly by her own family members. Honor killing is a manifestation of global phenomenon in general and Muslim nations in particular. Since this terrible inhumane practice does exists only among the Muslims of the world—very often civilized people do blame Islam as the precursor of this dreadful act. Most others do not agree with this notion at all; and they try to put the blame on the tribal/cultural practice, and do not consider Islam is anyway responsible for it. In this essay I shall analyze the real issues, cause and origin, and pattern of this heinous act amongst the Muslims of the world to postulate if there is any link, or incitements that originates from the very core of Islam.

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

  • 4 votes
#2.10 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:50 PM EDT
kim me

Have you actually talked to these people or are you just linking this? Because I think that you are so wrong about Islam.

  • 1 vote
#2.11 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:15 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

Have you actually talked to these people or are you just linking this?

Strange question. Yes, I've talked to Muslims, and yes, I'm linking this.

Because I think that you are so wrong about Islam.

Care to elaborate on what I'm wrong about? I wonder what the 5000 Muslim women a year who were stoned to death would think of your opinion? And what about the Muslim lady who's post I linked? Is she wrong too?

  • 5 votes
#2.12 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:31 PM EDT
Elaine-1503791

I do not wish to further de-rail this article by commenting about Islam. If anyone doesn't like my opinion of Islam, then write an article about it and I'll be sure to stop by. Then tell me whatever you want and we'll debate it.

  • 4 votes
#2.13 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:35 PM EDT
kim me

Islam is like Christianity. They have two books. One is evil and the other is loving. Are you judging the evil Islam against the loving Christian book? Or are you judging the evil Christian book against the loving Islam book?

Islam is a loving religion from everything I have read. Christianity is the same.

Are you trying to attack another religion because it is not yours?

As an atheist, I accept everyone. Can you do the same?

    #2.14 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:49 PM EDT
    owlsview

    Thank you Elaine, I was on the verge of deleting many of the preceding comments in this section.

    People we have been having an excellent discussion here. Deflecting from it does all of the participants a disservice.

    • 3 votes
    #2.15 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:55 PM EDT
    Elaine-1503791

    I do not wish to further de-rail this article by commenting about Islam. If anyone doesn't like my opinion of Islam, then write an article about it and I'll be sure to stop by. Then tell me whatever you want and we'll debate it.

    Are you deliberately de-railing this seed? I have lots of articles about Islam on my page, feel free to jump in one and we'll talk.

    • 4 votes
    #2.16 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:56 PM EDT
    hugh b

    i wasn't in the wrong place and left, I'm still here(sic hear)

    i wrote my piece and moved on, i'm not going to argue specifics, especially when making general comments

    I decry both sides of the hypocrisy and how the ultimate power, big money, uses all of it to divide us

    • 2 votes
    #2.17 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:00 AM EDT
    owlsview

    I'm glad you are back Hugh, as I said earlier I was with your comment until just that one phrase. I feel like I owe you an apology. I am sometimes a little quick at reacting to what I think might be a deflection, especially one of a religious nature.

    Religion though it is a major issue unfortunately, is not a subject I like to argue about, especially when it involves pitting one religion against another. I hold nobody responsible to the above off topic discussion except myself.

    Your earlier contribution was a valuable and pertinent one and I hope you will continue to join in.

    Hypocrisy sucks whatever the source.

    • 3 votes
    #2.18 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:39 AM EDT
    tesla013

    "Camp Happy" ROFL!!!! The fear of changing the way business is done in America is very real and for very good reason. Not once in the last 50 years has a company ever paid a fine, ever paid a tax, in fact these corporations and banks and lenders and brokers have never paid for anything. We have paid for it all, every single dollar. Fine a company, hey no problem they say, we will pass that on to our customers. Are these robber barons and thieves scared? damned skippy they are, so where do you think their money is?? Here, in America?? Nope, it is where it cannot be seized by hands here. And this is the fear; These people can do real damage to real folk and not suffer one whit. And I am sorry but if you want action, it is gonna take action, these thieves are the most ruthless humans on the planet, Al-Qeida has nothing on Wall Street execs. These people were willing to bring the entire world to it's collective knees and nearly have done so. I am glad these people are protesting but I believe without some leadership, it will come to nothing. For the most part these kids are not educated despite being college graduates, they have no focus, and frankly they have been trained in how to be a victim from the first moment they entered the school system. But God bless 'em they know instictively that something is dreadfully wrong and they are at least standing up and putting something on the line. I wish I had the means to be with them.

    • 7 votes
    #2.19 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:51 AM EDT
    magnoliaave

    elaine...you are spot on with everything you posted. The problem I have with these protesters if that they don't really know why they are protesting. They talk about student loans, higher hourly pay, corporations, etc. etc. We lost 80% of our retirement in the fall of 2008....well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Who do I blame? My husband and me! We worked for $8.40 an hour sitting with the "elderly" after the crash. Lost our jobs because of no work!

    These protesters are not going to make any difference whatsoever in what they are doing. Where they actually can make a difference is go back to school, get a job and stop blaming 1% of the population for failures they haven't even experienced yet.

    Actually, it shouldn't matter whether one is a Republican or Democrat. We are all in this together, so, suck it up and not whining.

    P.S. Not everyone is a rocket scientist. If you have to flip hamburgers...do a good job!

    • 3 votes
    #2.20 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:04 AM EDT
    merleliz

    Tesla, I totally get what you are saying, and I agree.

    I see a lot of these kids as confused, angry and just as frustrated as the Conservatives and TEA Partiers are who see this country going down the drain and don't know what to do about it.

    They thought Obama was going to help, they thought there would be change, and that obviously hasn't happened...now what?

    They are looking at the same choices we all have had for too long, do we vote for Corrupt Politician A (or D, if you prefer), or Corrupt Politician B (or R)? What difference will it really make? BOTH corrupt politicians have or are in the process of being bought and paid for by special interest groups...and they KNOW THAT.

    Of course a lot of the things they are doing are ridiculous and appallingly nasty...defecating in the streets, on the American flag, etc...but REMEMBER, the news media is only showing what has shock value, just as they did with the TEA party and Conservative groups...they were all labelled as racist idiots because of the actions of a few....well, racist idiots.

    Yeah, the goofy chanting and Kumbaya and wiggling their fingers in the air is irritating. But...does anyone remember "By the time we got to Woodstock, we were half a million strong"? My generation did some damn silly things too.

    No, they don't know what they want or how to acheive it. Well, neither do I. I want to see a return to American values...yep, the old "truth, justice and the American way" spiel...back to a time when a man's word was his bond, where honor and truth and charity were expected of people; back to a time before "nice guys finish last" was an accepted truism, and crooked dealing was frowned upon, not lauded as "good business"; back to a time where the only things kids had to fear in school was a failing grade...not being shot in the halls.

    I can understand how these kids feel...they are just as scared as we are They, of course, have no clue how we feel, but we need to remember being young and idealistic and wanting "world peace".

    I have to admit that the Occupy Atlanta demonstrations have been peaceful...annoying, but peaceful. Kasim Reed is reluctant to evict them from the park, but he is going to have to, soon, because there are events scheduled to take place that the demonstrations will interfere with...but I will give them credit, they have hung in there through the last 3 days of rain, which I didn't think they would do...and so far as I have heard, they aren't trashing the park.

    • 5 votes
    #2.21 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:59 AM EDT
    merleliz

    The problem I have with these protesters if that they don't really know why they are protesting.

    I think (and I certainly could be wrong) that they are protesting for the same reasons the TEA party people did. They see their future vanishing before their very eyes and they are scared to death.

    They did what they were supposed to do. They went to school, they got an education, they got "student loans" that their counselors, parents and school officials told them they could apply for...and now what? There are no jobs. The careers they thought they would have aren't going to materialize...they are being hounded for money that they have no hope of paying back, they are frustrated and angry and frightened.

    They have been raised in a society that has been touting for years that they should be "encouraged" and "rewarded" for good behavior, with no mention of punishment for failure. They've been good (or at least, they didn't get hooked on crack, aren't in jail, pregnant, etc...) and they want their reward. But they are in the big real world now, and rewards aren't coming to them, and there are severe punishments for failure in the real world.

    No jobs, lousy economy, frightening predictions for the future...and what, pray tell, have they been bombarded with on a daily basis by the government from the POTUS on down through the mainstream media? It's all the fault of "corporate greed" and the "evil rich"!

    • 4 votes
    #2.22 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:24 PM EDT
    owlsview

    Go back to school and get a job? A large number of these people have already graduated and want a job. Flippin burgers, ok, that's cool. You do realize that besides the low pay that you have to set aside all of your rights under the labor laws. Asking for a ten minute break can get you a permanent break. Try obeying the health laws in most of these places and you are a trouble maker.

    I used to be a staunch believer in peaceful demonstrations and passive resistance. The way I feel now, if you grab me by the arm while I am standing holding a sign with the peace symbol on it, and you better be ready to defend your life and I don't care if you are wearing a friggin badge or not.

    • 4 votes
    #2.23 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:34 PM EDT
    Boudicea

    Owl - a McDonald's manager makes about $40K a year plus bonuses and sometimes a company car. Not exactly Min. wage but these people are WAY too good for "flipping burgers". Whatever happened to working your way up the ladder?

    • 4 votes
    #2.24 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:36 PM EDT
    magnoliaave

    "Evil rich"! Darn, I know a lot of rich people and if they are evil they sure keep it hidden. Even when we were working $8.40 per hour jobs, we still hung out with them. Couldn't reciprocate with the dinner parties anymore 'cause we had to move to a one bedroom apt. Geez, I suppose I could resent them, but I don't!

    I am degreed and guess I could complain that the jobs I qualified for were given to young people. Discrimination, don't you think?

    Heck, I can't even get a job flipping hamburgers....the jobs that are open go to young people.

    • 1 vote
    #2.25 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:05 PM EDT
    owlsview

    KJM Girl what a manager who works for a company store and what one makes in a franchise is as different as day and night and there are more franchises than company stores.

    Obviously your minds are closed to the idea of working with this movement and keeping it in the hands of the left. You would rather blame them and condemn them for that which is not their fault. It's all about they have to prove something to you. What are you proving to them?

      #2.26 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:46 PM EDT
      Boudicea

      Owl you seem really passionate about this, but I am just as passionate. My mind is NOT closed against "supporting" change - even radical change. However, a bunch of people who don't know WHAT they want is not effective. When they come up with something reasonable, I will get behind them. I am in support of stopping the wars (if that is what they want). I am in support of getting corruption out of government (if that is what they want).

      I am NOT in support of raping capitalism for more "gimme, gimme, gimme, I deserve it!". That's part of the ongoing problem with this country. I will NOT support "The bank stole my home" rhetoric - that's bull@!$%#.

      The list of "demands" had some good points but they were outweighed by what I consider socialistic nonsense. When and if they settle on an agenda and a methodology, I will reconsider. Until then, all I see is this getting out of control. And now that the UNIONS have co-opted the OWS crowd, I can't see any good outcome and I can predict increased violence.

      • 4 votes
      #2.27 - Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:42 AM EDT
      Spikegary

      Mereliz,

      Did you ever see the movie, 'The Legend of Bagger Vance'? One of the sub-stories in the movie was the boy's father was forced to accept a job as a street sweeper and it was embarrassing to the little boy. One of the guys told him that he shoiuld be proud of his father becuase he did waht needed to be done to support his family while other people just walked away from their responsibilities (this was set in depression times).

      I truly believe that this country needs to dial back and reset itself. The idea of lower wages is going to happen, this will force those in positions of power to dial back on the prices they set for items. Lower wages can and will bring back jobs and the R&D to make better things than the previous generation of things. The simple fact that out of control spending, the shunning of anything considered 'beneath me', the he makes more money than me so it's unfair attitude has to change if this country ever wants to see itself return to an even keel.

      • 3 votes
      #2.28 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:20 AM EDT
      Reply
      owlsview

      A different presentation on the differences between the left and right than I have heard before, but quite plausible.

      Religion, morals, ethics, etc are dictated by accepted beliefs, none of this fringe hippie stuff for us. The land of religious tolerance is more of an Christian country than it has ever been.

      I don't quite get what you are saying here? Fringe hippie stuff? What do you know about hippies? I was pretty much with you until that remark. Please clarify. If it is your intention to turn this into a religious discussion, forget it this is the wrong place.

      And now here we are again.

      Yes, here we are again and are we going to make the same mistakes the older generations did in the 60s?

      • 2 votes
      Reply#3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:22 PM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      To me the sixties were about "not to kill or be killed".

      Today seems to be more about "somebody owes me and I'm entitled".

      • 6 votes
      #3.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:38 PM EDT
      owlsview

      We had multiple issues going on simultaneously in the 60's. We still do today, but this time around, the race, religion , sexual preferences and war are all playing second fiddle to the economy. Priorities change when you have nothing to put on the dinner table.

      We do owe these young people something. Not a free ride, an opportunity. They are entitled to expect our help in getting those opportunities.

      • 4 votes
      #3.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:40 PM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      We had multiple issues going on simultaneously in the 60's.

      Agreed.

      We do owe these young people something. They are entitled to expect our help in getting those opportunities.

      This is part of what came out of the 60s and 70s, the feeling that someone owed you. When does the owing stop? How did they become "entitled" to expect anything before they have contributed anything? When does that "entitlement" end? When are they expected to start making their own opportunities and contributing instead of just taking?

      • 6 votes
      #3.3 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:10 AM EDT
      owlsview

      Do they each have a magic switch that can be thrown that will suddenly make them understand that the habits there parents raised them with are all wrong and miraculously grasp the meaning of self-reliance and responsibility? Even if that were possible and suddenly all these people wanted to work hard, raise families and be good American citizens, how do they do that with no jobs available?

      The hippie movement ended with a large dose of frustration. We weren't getting the types of changes we really wanted. Many felt ripped off for their efforts and felt like they deserved something, if you can't whip them beat them at their own game became a new purpose. It was amazing how the ranks of the protesters shrank was so well balanced by the number of yuppies that suddenly appeared. We have been a me me me society ever since.

      The conservatives definitely have one thing right. A return to basic family values is desperately needed. It is in no way the fault of these young people that they weren't raised in such an environment.

      • 2 votes
      #3.4 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:54 AM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      It was amazing how the ranks of the protesters shrank was so well balanced by the number of yuppies that suddenly appeared.

      Give me a hippy any day over a yuppie.

      • 3 votes
      #3.5 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:17 AM EDT
      owlsview

      Sentiment shared, I am truly ashamed of the behavior and willingness to sell out that my generation has displayed.

      • 3 votes
      #3.6 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
      Spikegary

      Again, when I was a teenager I got myself a job as a pump jockey at a gas station, I moved up to a general roustabout at an autobody shop, I washed dishes in a restaurant, I worked as a counter man and delivery guy for an auto parts store for a couple bucks an hour all before I joined the Air Force, after that, I put myself through school. I did lots of things that would be considered by many to be beneath them-but no one ever told me I deserved 'X' for no other reason than being born, I earned the things I got then and where I've worked myslef up to now.

      Seems there are too many folks out there that feek they should get 'X' becuase they, well, deserve it because they just deserve it. Reminds me of the old Jim Croce song 'Workin' at the Car Wash Blues'.

      We have a problem in this country-lots of unemployed, and yet, farmers end up hiring illegals to pick their crops because they can't get any Americans (unemployed or not) to lower themselves to that kind fo job.....

      • 4 votes
      #3.7 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:30 AM EDT
      merleliz

      but no one ever told me I deserved 'X' for no other reason than being born, I earned the things I got then and where I've worked myslef up to now.

      Agreed, Spike...as I did, you worked to survive and prosper. But the difference in this generation is that they HAVE been told, over and over again...due to the new styles of parenting and raising children, that they DO deserve "X" just for being born. Thanks to rhetoric from our government over the years, and the theory of reward just for being them that is indoctrinated into these kids ("Everyone gets a trophy...win or lose"), they truly and honestly think they are being deprived of "rights".

      Dr. Benjamin Spock has a lot to answer for, IMHO.

      • 3 votes
      #3.8 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:58 AM EDT
      Spikegary

      Everyone gets a trophy.....I remember the craze of 'My Child is an honor student at XXXXX Elementary School' stickers....then came the 'Well, my child is pretty wonderful at XXXXX Elementary School' bumperstickers. Mine would say, 'my child is working harder to become an honor student at XXXX Elementary School'.

      Life doesn't reward second place (Lesson 1), Life isn't fair (Lesson 2).

      • 4 votes
      #3.9 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
      tesla013

      They have turned them into "praise junkies"

      • 2 votes
      #3.10 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:54 AM EDT
      CL1

      Thanks to rhetoric from our government over the years, and the theory of reward just for being them that is indoctrinated into these kids ("Everyone gets a trophy...win or lose"), they truly and honestly think they are being deprived of "rights".

      I agree merleliz. They have created monsters, as there have been numerous articles about the resulting narcissism and 'perfection' disorder. (Narcissism is also a disease as a diagnosed personality disorder; I was using the word in the colloquial sense.) Just imagine a future of leaders, educators, economists, scientists, etc... with an attitude that they are 'perfect' - kinda scary.

      • 2 votes
      #3.11 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:18 PM EDT
      Reply
      Runner99

      Protesting something used to mean that there was a moral obligation to speak the truth for a better society. Now it seems like the protest is about "I want some of yours". How did that happen?

      • 9 votes
      Reply#4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:00 PM EDT
      owlsview

      What it seems and what it is are not the same.

      • 5 votes
      #4.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:42 PM EDT
      Runner99

      I get that, however, the disservice to the young people needing help is that they were given everything they needed in their youth without having to work for it. Want a video game, here ya go, want that new bike, here ya go. They are the generation of entitlement coddled by the parents. What they need isn't another hand out, but a swift kick in ass.

      Did you ever try to hire one of these people? It's down right frustrating.

      • 8 votes
      #4.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:19 PM EDT
      Runner99

      .......and further more I do blame the parents of these kids somewhat. By telling them what sports to play, what school courses to take, who they can befriend, etc, left them with little ability to make good choices. At some point the children become adults though and have to realize that nobody is in charge of their future but themselves. To keep giving hand outs instead of a hand up does not create the adults of America we need.

      • 9 votes
      #4.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:29 PM EDT
      owlsview

      A swift kick in the pants to do what? Get a job? Where? Kicking their butts isn't going to educate them on how to be responsible and fend for themselves. That's what the parents were supposed to be doing.

      I think it is a bit disingenuous to say nobody is in charge of their future but themselves. When you are told stay in line or get left behind, just how much control do you have over your future?

      Not a hand out, a hand up in getting things straightened out. Instead of a swift kick in the ass how about a little direction.

      Whether you like it or not, these are the people who are going to be running this country when ypu and I are 6 feet under.

      • 5 votes
      #4.4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:42 PM EDT
      Runner99

      Any more direction, and they are going to be headed straight into bankruptcy. I'm all for guiding young people, but they also have to learn how to find their own way. Answer me this, if these young adults somehow got cast back in the 40's, 50's, or 60's would they survive past the age of thirty with their current mentality?

      • 8 votes
      #4.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:49 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Nope, but who's fault is that. Their current mentality is a result of the culture we allowed them to grow up in.

      • 5 votes
      #4.6 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:05 PM EDT
      Runner99

      As it was back in the great Depression. Mentalities can change. I refuse to give anyone a pass who is an adult still blaming the parent.

      • 7 votes
      #4.7 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:11 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Whether for better or worse depends largely upon us. :)

      • 3 votes
      #4.8 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:20 PM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      Their current mentality is a result of the culture we allowed them to grow up in.

      And that started happening in the 60s to where we are today, they grow thinking they are all winners and ask and you shall receive. No more hard work and make your own way instead of expecting it to be handed to you (not you you, you in general).

      • 4 votes
      #4.9 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:12 AM EDT
      owlsview

      They may be adults by age but they weren't raised to be adults. That is the fault of the parents.

      Please see my 3.4.

      • 3 votes
      #4.10 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:59 AM EDT
      Spikegary

      My wife and I have had this discussion numerous times-I don't believe it is my job as a parent to be liked, to be friends with my kids. It's my job to help prepare them to be functional adults in their own right someday. Friendship develops with respect, but who else can teach the difference between right and wrong but a parent?

      Parenthood and Popularity should never be linked. I'm proud of my kids because the two grown ones go out and work for what they want and understand that no one starts at the top and yet they both continue to advance, even in this economy. My little one-when she wants something, she works for it-and she has the additional pride in knowing that she went out and EARNED it. When we have a racing event, afterwards she goes through and collects cans and bottles people are too lazy to return themselves-and generally, she makes around $100 per event doing this.

      • 4 votes
      #4.11 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:24 AM EDT
      Reply
      Vlad's dog

      Owl, you took all the words and thoughts that I have been thinking in the last week and strung them into a great written piece today. I can't add anything, You said it all right here, bravo, my friend.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:15 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Thank you Vlad, I hope you are saying the same to others and waking a few people up.

      • 6 votes
      #5.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:43 PM EDT
      NativeCon

      It's hard to be in opposition of anyone's desire to be seen and heard. It's difficult for me to simply deny this group their right to assemble, so I don't. My issue is merely a hope that those who are just along for the 'contact high' leave and let the true passionate fighters get a message out. Easy for me to say, I realize, but self policing could improve the image that frankly is NOT very stunning right now. I sincerely hope to see a 'spokesperson' rise up out of this 'movement'. If you will, a 'joe the plumber' type voice who can take the 'mic' and speak for the many. As it is, the central issue is drowned out by ridiculous, albiet rightful splinter agendas. Everyone who has a horse in this race, is hurting. I respect and FEEL that, but I do not want to be lectured by those who simply have nothing better to do. Talk to me....NOT at me, and I promise, I will listen.

      • 4 votes
      #5.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:14 PM EDT
      owlsview

      How about if we were to speak to them first? Without calling them names, without lecturing them. Looking them in the eye and being honest with them. Perhaps the sensible ones will begin to speak up if they don't have to fear having their words twisted and their ideals distorted. Just maybe we can help them find the leaders they need from amongst themselves and lead these leaders to the front of the pack with support and understanding. Or we can leave it to the left to dictate their actions and issues.

      • 6 votes
      #5.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:22 PM EDT
      Runner99

      Exactly NativeCon and Owlsview. If these protestors really want to make a change for the better why not call on the TeaParty to join them in a rally. Present the case that we all want the same result, but have different ideas of the path to get there and need to compromise. Instead I just see "looky, looky at me, I'm making a statement. I'm not sure what my statement is yet, but I'm making it." The biggest corruption starts with Congress, that's where the protests belong. Hell, I'd even join in.

      • 7 votes
      #5.4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:26 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Great idea Runner.

      • 4 votes
      #5.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:28 PM EDT
      Spikegary

      NativeCon-I agree with you, but look waht happened to Joe the Plumber. Vilified by the very same group that is claiming kinship with this movement. The nail that sticks up gets the hammer in this society. Maybe OV is right about establishing a neutral dialogue with these folks.

      • 3 votes
      #5.6 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:27 AM EDT
      Reply
      Boudicea

      All due respect, Owl, those protestors in the 60s knew exactly what they wanted. They wanted equality - through civil rights legislation. They wanted to end the war. They wanted to end the draft. They pinpointed the changes they wanted and went about getting those things changed.

      The OWS crowd isn't like that. They want "change". What kind of change? What do they want done? How do they want it accomplished? They want free education - well sorry, that dog won't hunt. They want to stop Wall Street from "Stealing" their homes. Really?

      They remind me of when my kids were babies and started crying. I wanted to give them what they needed but their diapers were dry, they were fed and they had no fever - but they kept crying. This people are crying. Why? If they don't tell us EXACTLY what they want "fixed" there's no hope for this movement.

      Human rights aren't being violated. There is no evil dictator killing off entire villages. Nobody is starving while the rebels confiscate all the U.N. supplies. WHAT DO THEY WANT?

      I will NOT stand with them until I know what they stand FOR.

      • 10 votes
      #6 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:23 PM EDT
      Runner99

      Amen kjmgirl, amen. I don't think they even know what they want. Parrot those who are willing to give you what you want....that's all they know.

      • 9 votes
      #6.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:32 PM EDT
      owlsview

      You are so right yet so wrong. We knew in general what we wanted with the basic hippie movement. Please stop categorizing the Civil Rights Movement, The Woman's Movement and other movements of the time period as all being part of the hippie movement.

      We wanted changes in the educational system, a good education available to everybody. We didn't get what we wanted. Instead of everybody getting an opportunity for a good education, standards got lowered.

      Ending the war and stopping the draft. That didn't happen until the mid-seventies when the war ended and the draft wasn't needed anymore.

      We didn't see the pitfalls and traps that were laid for us by the establishment. We had no concept of just how corrupt the political system was and how deceitful both parties could be.

      We were the lambs led to slaughter by the socialist groups that listened to us and worked with us while the conservatives did their best to discredit and ignore us.

      Beneath the media veneer these people want the same thing we wanted. Why can't the Tea Party movement work together with these people who happen to want many things in common with them. Oh, that's right they are a bunch of fuddy duddy old people who don't think a young person can have a brain.

      • 5 votes
      #6.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:00 PM EDT
      Runner99

      Not at all Owl, we do think a young person can have a brain. We just don't give them much opportunity to use it by giving them everything.

      I don't think the Tea party has that much power to stop what people want in common. That would be the good work of Congress.

      • 8 votes
      #6.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:07 PM EDT
      owlsview

      My apologies about the brain thing it was a visual if you know what I mean.

      Sorry, but I don't understand your last paragraph.

      • 3 votes
      #6.4 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:11 PM EDT
      kim me

      Owl, to correct you; we called ourselves freaks and with pride. Because our elders called us freak as an insult.

      • 2 votes
      #6.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:15 PM EDT
      owlsview

      How true Kim. We were damn proud to be different and young enough to flaunt it.Beauty and barbershops hated us but the clothing industry loved our wild tastes.Looking at these protesters today gives me a sense of deja vu.

      • 3 votes
      #6.6 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:26 PM EDT
      kim me

      We were mainly different because we accepted almost everyone, (except narcs). We judged only those who judged us.

      When I met my-wife-to-be, she was raised to hate long-hairs. She was shocked that I was a staunch feminist. No meant no. She now accepts everyone as to who they are and not what they are. It has now been over 38 years with her. I can't even imagine anyone else.

      Freaks, hippies, lefties, commies, marxists, they are just names for us that really stand for equality. I wear the title(s) with pride.

      • 1 vote
      #6.7 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:54 PM EDT
      owlsview

      What people are called quite often has very little to do with what they are.

      • 4 votes
      #6.8 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:26 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Kim, unlike some I don't see a Socialist behind every Liberal. I also don't think that the Democratic Party deserves to call itself a liberal party. I gather from your remarks that you consider yourself a liberal. Possibly even a Democrat. I am quite pleased that you decided to participate.

      Acceptance of others, regardless, was one of the most different things about our generation. We need to exhibit that same kind of acceptance to these young people rather than leave them out in the cold like we were.

      • 5 votes
      #6.9 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:39 PM EDT
      NativeCon

      kjmgirl....You completely understand my thinking on this, and I yours. Very well said.

      Human rights aren't being violated.

      Precisely. To equate class envy towards legal institutions and employees with WAR and genocide is simply wrong. These protesters are seemingly more interested in getting laid than they are in offering a single 'solution'. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard any answers, just bitching. Hopefully, one will rise up from the masses and articulate the 'point' so we all can understand. Assuming there IS a point outside of the party, and I'm not talking, political party.

      • 7 votes
      #6.10 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:42 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Sounds like you must be a bit jealous Con. You don't mind if I call you Con do you Con? After all they at least are voluntarily getting laid while we just bend over and take it in the rear from the major corporations. The "party" you are talking about is nothing but window dressing.

      • 4 votes
      #6.11 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:02 PM EDT
      CL1

      I said similar on another thread, that I didn't understand if they were asking for something in particular, or 'many' somethings, or are they just pointing fingers about jobs. Another Viner had suggested that it might have been a ploy organized by the Dems to make the Reps look bad right before the election (gee, nothing like that has happened before, has it? lol).

      That Author mentioned several good ideas about things to complain about, though. And, that makes good sense to have a 'plan of action' to go with the whine 'to get the big cheese.' :)

      This was a very powerful article, owlsview; well-presented and to the point. I agree with your thoughts.

      There's really no better way to be heard, en masse. Writing letters are seen by a correspondent, with a form letter reply. What good does that do? It needs to be done peacefully, but assertively and relentlessly, imo. Maybe we'll find out if the rumors from a couple years ago were true - Obama's citizens' militia called to arms?

      • 5 votes
      #6.12 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:22 PM EDT
      owlsview

      You do realize that with that last statement you have left yourself open to all of the tinfoil hat jokes, seeing as I kind of agree with you I am reaching for mine now. I appreciate you dropping in.

      • 5 votes
      #6.13 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:31 PM EDT
      CL1

      LOL.. (wondering if the reason why I can't find mine is because I used it to wrap the leftovers:)

      • 5 votes
      #6.14 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:38 PM EDT
      Friend of Ayn

      kjmgirl,

      Sometimes, a thing is so conflated, indeterminate, and conotational, with the true causes so distorted by the shear accumulation of obfuscation, that it becomes hard to define.

      What does the word fascism mean and what is it's nature? Everyone can point to the entirety of what the Nazis did and were, but defining it in it's entirety is nearly impossible to do with exactitude.

      You don't have to know exactly how you are being subject to injustice--to feel the boot on your neck, and once your breath becomes short, you will lash out--as you should.

      • 2 votes
      #6.15 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:21 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Such flowery prose, I am truly impressed.

      • 3 votes
      #6.16 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:13 AM EDT
      Boudicea

      Please don't think that I don't object to many of the issues these people SEEM to be concerned with. However, from all I've read, their pleas for "justice" are based on false premises.

      For instance, the rants about the banks "stealing their homes" is just ludicrous. Banks are NOT stealing anyone's homes. People are not paying their mortgages and the banks are foreclosing. The government put an unlawful (IMO) moratorium on foreclosures, thereby disallowing the banks their LEGAL right to repossess property which is THEIRS - giving people an opportunity to catch up on the payments or sell the property to make the bank whole. Many did not do either and as a result, the banks took back property which was collateralized by the loans.

      Since when does this country allow government to force anyone to ignore a legal contract and withhold their own property from them? That's not America.

      They talk about not being able to pay back student loans. Nobody forced them to sign papers for those loans. Now they are whining about forgiving those loans. Fine. Great. WHO is going to pay for it? ME and YOU, that's who. It seems that too many Americans have forgotten that in order to learn, all you have to do is open a friggin BOOK! Sure, some jobs require a degree (but not really all that many) and some require advanced degrees - I'm thinking theatre arts isn't one of them. Too much - WAY TOO MUCH - emphasis is being put on that college degree instead of putting the emphasis on knowledge.

      There are problems within our country which have to do solely and completely with GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION. Those are the problems I will stand with this group on. Yes, we need campaign reforms, possibly term limits, certainly we need to address the influence of lobbyists within government. But you know, I don't see these people talking about THAT.

      Instead I see them boo-hooing about how those damned CEOs make too much money. Would that be those same CEOs you expected to give you a six figure income job when you graduated, kids?

      Again, when I know exactly what these people want, I will redefine my commitment to them. In the meantime, all I can say is that this "movement" is a frightfully fertile breeding ground for "change" in the form of the Socialist Party agenda and apparently the Socialist Party thinks so too, because they are taking full advantage of the fact that these "protestors" have no vision or plan - only discontent.

      • 7 votes
      #6.17 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:04 AM EDT
      owlsview

      The false premises they base their pleas on are the premises they have been being fed from birth, especially by the left-wing since the right wing has always shown a tendency to be pious in their relationship with young people

      You encouraged them to go to school. You told them that the best way to get a high paying job was to get a good education and a degree. You encouraged them to get grants and loans to achieve these degrees. Big business has constantly bleated about the need for a higher educated job force. The majority of these young people did as they were encouraged and told to do. Now we condemn them for doing so? The first word that comes to my mind is hypocrisy.

      • 2 votes
      #6.18 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:10 AM EDT
      Boudicea

      Say what you want Owl. The fact is that I finished college was I was 37 years old - because that is when I could afford it. WHO encouraged them to get sky-high amounts of loans? I assure you it wasn't me. My kids started out at community college and so did I. And I'm not condemning anyone for getting an education - it's just unfortunate that their Education didn't include basic math and finance - you must repay what you borrow and find out how much you have to make in order to repay those loans. NOBODY (except maybe a doctor) is gonna get out of college and the first year make enough to pay $700-$1000 a month in student loan repayments. Where is the common sense?

      • 6 votes
      #6.19 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:33 AM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      it's just unfortunate that their Education didn't include basic math and finance

      From #6.2

      We wanted changes in the educational system, a good education available to everybody. We didn't get what we wanted. Instead of everybody getting an opportunity for a good education, standards got lowered.

      We spend more and more money on this subpar education. Not only that over the years someone made a decision that taxpayers should be responsible for pre-school (babysitting service) for these parents who are to busy to raise their own kids. We now pay for them to basically eat 3 meals a day (including when they are off from school), once again instead of parents taking responsbility for theirs, we now are required to bus them to whatever school they want to go to, of course at taxpayers expense.

      When do we start saying no and tell the parents to step up for their kids?

      • 4 votes
      #6.20 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:02 PM EDT
      owlsview

      KJM girl, one of the biggest points that I am trying to make is that these kids weren't taught common sense and it isn't something they are going to learn overnight on their own. You may not be personally to blame for the condition things are in, but if you take an attitude of that's just to bad for them, let them figure it out on their own you will be to blame if things get worse instead of better. Why bother complaining about the left if you are just going to sit back and let them win?

      Pockets, the time to start saying no and telling the parents to step up for their kids was a long time ago. Doing so now won't be of much help to this generation but if we start now the next generation just might have it a little bit better.

      • 3 votes
      #6.21 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:30 PM EDT
      Boudicea

      I'm not going to stand up for the "right" or let the "left" win, either. They both have it wrong on education. Privatize. Stop telling schools what they have to teach and how many kids they have to pass and why they can't hold them back. Break the teachers unions. Utilize vouchers. Eliminate the Dept of Ed.

      And as far as common sense, you can't teach that. But just because they have none doesn't mean I'm responsible for paying their bills.

      • 6 votes
      #6.22 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:41 PM EDT
      my-pockets-r-mt

      Maybe it is time to put education back to the states and get the fed gov out. Not so sure on not telling schools what to teach. Some of the problems I have seen over past years is school to school different and the result is kids not knowing what the next class they enter into already knows.

      • 4 votes
      #6.23 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Pockets, more control dose need to be returned to the states and not just in the area of education.

      Is that all you can focus on KJM. A few interviews with skewed soundbites of fools saying they want a free ride? I don't want to be responsible for paying their bills either. The money is the most important thing mentality is still going strong in this country. These young people aren't the only ones that need to learn a few new things.

      • 1 vote
      #6.24 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:59 PM EDT
      Friend of Ayn

      I'm going to put this in short form because after roofing for 9 hours today, I want to go to bed. So If it is just an outline, you will have to think about it and fill in the rest yourself. Or wait till tomorrow evening when I have time to fill it in.

      There was a time when the students, or their parents, were the ones to pay the teacher. It seems to me that we need to separate teaching, from school.

      The school should be the infrastructure of the institution, and the administration there of, along with that part of the institution that is not involved directly with education--sports, clubs, and that type of socializing that takes place at school.

      Teachers should rent their space in the school and be paid through the vouchers that each student, and their parents, are supplied with. They make a contract with each student to teach them whatever subject they hang their shingle out for. They can join together, take on apprentice teachers, or arrange things however seems best to them to teach their subject. And compete with others in the field to attract students by having the best results. Or for that matter, for students who need to learn the subject enough to advance, but don't have an interest in the subject because it doesn't apply much to their goals, attract and teach those students.

      Schools don't fail, students fail, teachers fail, parents fail. Take out the collectivization of results, and individualize both responsibility and--ah hell--cant even think of the words I want anymore--back tomorrow--sorry if this didn't make any sense.

      I will ad the idea of third party testing for verification so I don't forget it.

      • 2 votes
      #6.25 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:02 PM EDT
      Boudicea

      Owl, I'm losing you here. What is it you want? You want WHO to step in and "guide" these lost souls? I can guarantee that they do NOT want me to do it. My "radical" ideas of personal responsibility and individual liberty don't dovetail well with the unions and the progressives and the socialists in this movement.

      As far as I can see, NOBODY is even considering the concept of Personal Responsibility in the OWS crowd. If you think that's being closed-minded so be it, my friend, but I am not about to become a lemming chanting "change, change, change" running around like a chicken with my head cut off.

      If you're not afraid of the New World Order you damned well should be. This "occupy" movement is exactly what we've been moving toward for the last 20 years or so and it's in the works. If they get what they want, America is gone. Done. Dead.

      • 5 votes
      #6.26 - Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:47 AM EDT
      Reply
      NativeCon

      Freaks, hippies, lefties, commies, marxists, they are just names for us that really stand for equality. I wear the title(s) with pride.

      Congratulations on your 38 years. May you enjoy more ahead.

      Name and words mean things, and your list is indeed something I was once proud to be a member of, and in some ways still am. I, even in my 60's stupor appreciated the' free spirit' life and the independent....no responsibility ism, but never did I consider Marxism or communism to be romantic or on par with the former. Rather, I did and do see in my mind millions and millions of dead souls who were victims of those very real, and very evil, not free spirited political social machines. I don't know if you were simply making a point or not, but surely you know the distinction. Still, I wish you well with your soul mate...just know that under communism, you most likely would not have enjoyed those 38 years.

      Peace and thank you.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#7 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:50 PM EDT
      kim me

      You missed the gist of my post.

      We believed in trust, we believed in honesty, we believed in our fellow person.

      Marxism and communism were labels put on us. We believed in all of us. We wanted to help all of us.

      Do not use labels to diminish what we wanted to do.

      The marxist and communist labels were forced on us. So be it.

      Maybe we were more Christian that the Christians were. Listening to Perry and Bachman, maybe so.

      • 1 vote
      #7.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:25 PM EDT
      Reply
      owlsview

      Mr. Con are you saying Kim is a believer in communism. All I read from his comment was that he didn't mind being called all of those things, he knew the truth about who he was. As a protester I too was called these same names and as part of the "movement" I was considered a part of the evil left. At the time I was a registered Republican and even worked on Nixon's re-election campaign.

      Labeling someone or something as being evil is a cop-out, a deflection from the real issues, an indication of no justifiable response.

      You are new here, please refrain from applying labels to people, it isn't constructive at all.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#8 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:30 PM EDT
      NativeCon

      I wear the title(s) with pride.

      Just responded to the words.

      • 5 votes
      #8.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:47 PM EDT
      NativeCon

      You are new here, please refrain from applying labels to people, it isn't constructive at all.

      Mr. Con are you saying Kim is a believer in communism.

      Nothing of the sort.

      I haven't called anyone anything. I was responding to #6.7. I did, however call Communism and Marxism evil. You are apparently reacting now, to the more explanatory and more recient comment in #7.1, which I was not privy to when I replied to #6.7.

      I try to avoid calling people names. Evil dictatorships, not so much.

      Thank you.

      • 5 votes
      #8.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:58 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Please feel at home.

      • 4 votes
      #8.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
      magnoliaave

      kjmgirl has it going on. She knows from whence she came! Thank you!

      • 2 votes
      #8.4 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:42 PM EDT
      Reply
      DEATHNELL J.

      I consider myself an US US US AMERICAN, But "my" middle class concerns have been brushed aside with great insignificance....There's enough "pie" for everyone to share, no need for the few, to keep it all! Very VERY good article owlsveiw, "very" good article!

      • 4 votes
      Reply#9 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:55 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Hello Deathnell J. How's this for a little different phraseology?

      There is enough "pie" for everyone to share, not right that only the few should have an opportunity to get a piece of it. I do not support the Robin Hood practice of "taking" from the rich and giving to the poor. I do support taking control of the poor away from the rich and giving all the same opportunities to pursue their dreams.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#10 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT
      Fla Pat

      I do support taking control of the poor away from the rich and giving all the same opportunities to pursue their dreams.

      Expand that thought to include the middle class as well and you might have nailed down what OWS is all about. The idea of that control can include both financial and social sectors.

      There may not be a single definitive document that relates an ultimate goal of OWS but freedom from control would be multi-faceted anyway and almost impossible to quantify. So how do you encourage on that basis? It is a feeling that either our country is right or it's not.

      • 2 votes
      #10.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:00 PM EDT
      owlsview

      Must have been a Freudian slip on my part, the middle class has become so small that it is easily forgotten.

      • 4 votes
      #10.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:03 PM EDT
      Fla Pat

      Seems Washington and the big money boys have forgotten them as well. Have they awoken the sleeping giant? There is power in numbers and if motivated by a feeling of being done wrong (and who can argue otherwise really and truthfully) this could be historic... or not. History will tell.

      • 2 votes
      #10.3 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:34 PM EDT
      owlsview

      The giant began awakening years ago, it is but now obtaining full consciousness. The numbers of those who have been wronged are infinitesimal. We are approaching a cross-roads in our history. Which way shall we go?

      • 3 votes
      #10.4 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:22 AM EDT
      Reply
      Friend of Ayn

      If you allow people to assert over you--they will, to the exact extent to which you allow it. always has been--always will be.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#11 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:57 PM EDT
      CL1

      I agree. Look at Libya.

      • 1 vote
      #11.1 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:32 AM EDT
      Friend of Ayn

      CL1, way beyond Libya. The process of civilization began the first time two proto-hominids got together and defended each other and their troop from an over assertive troop leader. From that day to this with the OWS people, it is the same fight.

      The root of all good, and the nature of hero, is not allowing an assertion over the existence, identity, or consciousness of yourself, an innocent, and in consort with your fellow man--each other.

        #11.2 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:31 PM EDT
        CL1

        Very nicely stated, Ayn.

          #11.3 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:11 PM EDT
          Reply
          datsnotmynameDeleted
          owlsview

          #12 Advertising.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#13 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:23 AM EDT
          greg-709692

          I've got two questions ?

          Out of the 60's protests, some good programs came out of it along with some good changes, but, isn't the new protests really about the corruption of those programs and changes ?

          After asking that, who allowed the corruption of those programs and changes ?

          (Beating same drum again)

          • 9 votes
          Reply#14 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:47 AM EDT
          owlsview

          Please read my 3.4 Greg. The drum has never really stopped beating.

          The answer to your first question is yes.

          The answer to your second question is us.

          • 3 votes
          #14.1 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:14 AM EDT
          greg-709692

          how do they do that with no jobs available?

          Got it !!

          The OWS "NEEDS" Focused Direction from someone with common sense though.

          Some of the grievances make sense, but most of them are out there. I still think they should be sitting in washington.

          • 5 votes
          #14.2 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:21 PM EDT
          merleliz

          The OWS "NEEDS" Focused Direction from someone with common sense though.

          I think the point Owlsview is making is exactly that...but at this point, they are only getting direction from Unions and the Left...and we all know that common sense is not going to be something preached to them from that angle...just more soothing platitudes and class warfare rhetoric.

          • 5 votes
          #14.3 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:43 PM EDT
          owlsview

          You are right on target merleliz. That is exactly what I am trying to get the conservatives to realize. Don't let the left steal another generation.

          • 5 votes
          #14.4 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:21 PM EDT
          greg-709692

          Sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake. :)

          • 5 votes
          #14.5 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
          CL1

          Don't let the left steal another generation.

          That's exactly how I see it.

          I fought and fought, and not only did it get me nowhere, but it actually made things worse; you just look like a troublemaker, and your kids pay the price in grades and scholarships, and the better classes. It's not about knowledge; it's about using the better kids to push through the less capable.

          • 6 votes
          #14.6 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:07 PM EDT
          merleliz

          Don't get me started on public education...our public school system decided that the way to earn "performance bonuses" was to change the kid's answers on their tests. Is it any wonder these kids are clueless?

          • 5 votes
          #14.7 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
          CL1

          Really? ..That doesn't surprise me, and answers the question on how many make it through.

          Is it any wonder these kids are clueless?

          Not anymore. Thanks merleliz!

          • 4 votes
          #14.8 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:36 PM EDT
          merleliz

          Here you go...our education tax dollars at work:

          http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/first-punishments-to-be-1199104.html

          • 3 votes
          #14.9 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:53 PM EDT
          CL1

          Thanks, merleliz. 180 employees are quite a few! And to think they still have 130 on the payroll that are on leave waiting an outcome at 1 mil a month. wow.

          • 3 votes
          #14.10 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:17 PM EDT
          merleliz

          Not to mention the "performance bonuses" these...."educators" earned for changing the kid's grades.

          And that lowlife scumbag Beverly Hall accused everyone of "racism" when the investigations first started "You are all racists, you just can't believe that black children can learn and improve"...when the TRUTH was that Beverly Hall didn't believe that black kids could learn and improve, so she organized the cheating so that the "educators" could get their performance bonuses.

          In one of the stories I read, a young girl who had one of the highest scores on the test...was unable to read it.

          And the REALLY sad thing, IMHO, is that if Beverly Hall hadn't been so greedy for those bonuses and created test scores that were so high it drew comment and an investigation, if she had just been content with "passing grades" and a smaller bonus...she would probably have never been caught.

          And we have a decade of these children roaming around the streets of Atlanta, unable to read and write coherently, uneducated, can't even fill out a job application...high school graduates who are functionally illiterate and will be on the "take" for all of their lives...because all the money we threw at their education didn't do them a darn bit of good....it went to the pockets of the people who cheated them.

          Better yet, due to the terms of her contract...the taxpayers are on the hook for paying her defense attorneys.

          http://www.wrdw.com/schools/headlines/Atlanta_schools_to_pay_130K_for_chiefs_defense_127973783.html

          • 3 votes
          #14.11 - Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:40 AM EDT
          CL1

          because all the money we threw at their education didn't do them a darn bit of good....it went to the pockets of the people who cheated them.

          In a much different and broader context... boy, do I ever 'hear ya' ..to the disadvantage of the goal, and the detriment of the supporter of it.

          Thanks for link, merleliz.

          • 3 votes
          #14.12 - Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:27 PM EDT
          Reply
          my-pockets-r-mt

          Really? ..That doesn't surprise me, and answers the question on how many make it through.

          And merleliz only scratched the surface. Letting a kid keep taking the same exam until they pass. In florida if a grade 12 cannot pass the exit exams they can take an exam for grade 10. This list could get quite long.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#15 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:47 PM EDT
          owlsview

          It sounds like an insult to say it out loud and there is no nice way to word it. The truth is these most recent groups of graduates are extremely intelligent, but they only think they have been educated and that is 100% our fault, nobody to pass the blame to.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#16 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:42 PM EDT
          tesla013

          Dearest Owl,

          I have made a determination to act. Check your mail.

          Sincerely,

          Tesla013

          • 1 vote
          Reply#17 - Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:27 AM EDT
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